#like if there was a version of the disney hercules movie where they used the characters from the bible

[im-probably-playing-genshin]

hearing those like toxic christians getting mad anytime anyone does a like interpretation of the bible and saying its "mocking their religion" is so hypocritical when you think about how often other religions are interpreted and how little anyone cares about that (i.e pagans (especially hellenic pagans))

[dicenete]

Helloooooo0, some more Idia Shroud fanart, now inspired by screenshots from Disney's Hercules. Because I HAVE A THEORY! = I'm rambling again. :) Note that at the time when I'm writing this I have just finished Book 6 and I haven't started Book 7 yet. So this will contain some spoilers for Book 6. And everything under the cut as always :)

Also Disney's Hercules took a lot of creative liberties with the Greek mythology. Like Hera being the one trying to kill Hercules, rather than Hades because Zeus was being a horny bastard. And Hades being pretty straight up guy compared to his contemporaries. But I will be using the Disney movie as the basis since that is where the game takes its inspirations.

THESIS:

Idia Shroud from Twisted Wonderland is more like a twisted version of Hercules rather than Hades from the Disney movie.

Here me out:

Sure, his visual design is pretty much inspired by Hades and I love it. And the fact that he has a job that was bestowed upon him by his bloodline rather than by his own choice. (Zeus forcing Hades to take care of the Underworld full of dead souls and so on. ) And how Idia is pretty sarcastic like Hades when he is avoiding serious talking or pointing out absurd things. Let's just say, I take this as the surface personality of Idia.

But underneath it all, what do we have? We have a person who wants to be normal. What did Hercules want to be in the start of the movie? A normal person. Someone who was accepted and someone who could fit in among his peers. That is ultimately what Idia wants. Idia wants to be liked. That's why I think he was inspired to be a hero when he was young, something Hercules also wants to be to gain acceptance. (Hercules does it to be with his biological family again and so on.)

They are both awkward in social situations, other kinda in this himbo way and other in this nerdy awkwardness kinda way.

They both go into Underworld to find the person who was the most important to them. Hercules - Megara / Idia - Ortho

BUT ALSO! At the end of the movie, Hercules wants to stay as a mortal because he found acceptance with Meg. Idia could have stayed with S.T.Y.X. If he really wanted. I'm pretty sure with that. But he chose to go back to NRC because he, with encouragement with Ortho, wanted to experience life before he has to go and be the Watchman of the Underworld. He has a long way to go, he really harbors so much self-hatred and uncounciously self-sabotages himself. It is good thing that he has Ortho calling him out on it.

I really hope to see him grow and like himself more in the future :)

(I just loved all the Greek mythology names and references in the Book 6, it is such *chef's kiss * Like how Star Rogue is pretty much the tale of Zeus fighting against his father Chronos who has eaten all his other siblings and so on.)

[genericpuff]

I’ve seen some people try and defend Lore Olympus by saying that movies like Hercules and such aren’t accurate to Greek myth, yet they’re still loved. And I somewhat get where they’re coming from, i really do.

BUT- I feel like part of the problem with LO is the fact that if you replace the names, you’d almost be right to assume it takes place in a completely different setting. Meanwhile, if you take away the names from the Hercules movie, you can still tell where it’s supposed to take place. (And who’s who, if you know your myths). Plus the writing of Hercules is 100% better than LO.

The difference between LO and Hercules is that Hercules clearly has respect for the source material put into it. It might not be accurate to the source material - because it's being retooled as a Disney movie for children - but you can tell there's still a lot of thought, love, and effort put into it. The team behind that movie did research on the art and culture of Greece, and adapted it into a movie that was entertaining and recognizable as a Greek myth adaption.

They put our home boy Heracles/Hercules in a tunic! Do you know how shocking that must have looked to American viewers who didn't know a shred of Greek myth and wondered why the big buff hero was being drawn in a skirt? Still accurate though!

LO, meanwhile, writes Greek myth as if it hates Greek myth for existing. It comes across more as a white woman using these stories purely for profit and colonizing it with American-esque culture. The outfits have become noticeably less Greek since the beginning, the characters never eat Greek food anymore, and the locations are left as vague as solid color backdrops to indicate "The Underworld" and "Olympus" without actually showing any set pieces or understanding of how these locations would look and feel in a modern setting.

All of these examples I gave are things we saw a decent amount of in S1. But since then it's just become talking heads on top of flat color backgrounds, eating Chinese food and dressing in American-style clothing. When was the last time we saw a mortal? There's just nothing Greek about the comic anymore because either Rachel has gotten so complacent that she just defaults to what she knows without any research (so what she watches on TV and in movies) or she only bothered with her research in the beginning to get people hooked and convinced that she's a "folklorist" so that they'd keep reading the series and giving her money on good will alone.

Using Hercules as an example of "well it's not accurate to Greek myth either!" completely misses the point of what people are getting at when they say that LO is a bad Greek myth retelling. Guess what else isn't completely accurate to Greek myth? Hadestown. Hades (the game). God of War. Stray Gods. They all take creative liberties with the source material in order to adjust it to the medium and audience they're creating it for, but none of those adaptions are quite as disrespectful as LO's. And God of War literally has little angry man going around and brutally murdering the gods. It still respects the setting of Greek myth more than LO, but unlike LO, it doesn't try to constantly sound smart with its inaccuracies, it knows fully well that it's a video game first and foremost.

And that's the beauty of myths. They can be adapted across generations and used to tell new versions of the same stories. So it begs the question, why bother writing a Greek myth retelling if you're going to make it so non-Greek that you could have just as well just written a normal soap drama and have it still be virtually the same?

Compared to all of the other examples, LO is the definition of confidently incorrect. It should have stuck to just being Greek myth inspired, not a retelling.

[angel-of-hunky-doryness]

The Conflicts of Disney's Hercules (Part 3): Hades vs Zeus

Brother vs brother- talk about a tale as old as time, huh? From Cain and Abel to Hamlet and Claudius to the more modern examples of Mufasa and Scar to Thor and Loki, what's not to hate about about two brothers at odds with one another? Well technically its more of an angsty, brooding guy who's had it up to here with their perfect golden retriever brother getting the throne, daddy's attention, and/or the girl. While our bootiful no-thoughts head empty golden child becomes intimately aware at the last possible second of their brother's treachery as they're falling into your proverbial wildebeest stampede.

That's right y'all.

May I present to the surprise of no one.

THEM:

Finally we come to the conflict that sent the proverbial Sisyphean boulder into motion that is Disney's Hercules.

Part I: And now a word from our IV pound sponsor:

Before I begin my analysis on the relationship between Disney's Hades and Zeus, I thought I would provide a bit of background to the established canon Disney presents us. Mind you, dear reader, we have the 1997 film and the Hercules animated TV show (1998) to look towards. However, there are minor conflicting information between the two, but as always, the movie is always more canon than what the TV show gave us.

Zeus is older, Hades is younger. Weird I know.

But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and support Disney on this one. Because while in the grand scheme of things Hades is most definitely NOT the youngest child of the siblings in Greek Myth, there is a small technicality that cements Zeus' authority to rule over his older siblings as if Zeus was the firstborn child this whole time.

That technicality being: Kronos

Kronos gets the big bag prophecy/curse from Gaia that one of his children will overthrow him like he did with his dad, so Kronos starts baking his cake and eating it too.

Hades was the first male born (hestia is traditionally firstborn but patriarchy or whatevs) so that also made him the first to be swallowed by Kronos. Thus, when Zeus freed the rest of his siblings, Hades was the last son to be up-chucked since he was ingested first - that made Hades the last "born."

And this "second birth" of Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, Hades, and Hestia is what cements the order of authority in the 6 siblings hierarchy. Therefore, Zeus was made firstborn and had full authority to claim the sky if he so desired.

But Zeus was a chad in those days and still gave his brothers a chance to draw lots and all that b/c even he saw how unfair the Fates had been to his brothers. Yet still, destiny favored Zeus and Mr. High and Mighty got the kingdom with a view.

Which is a perfect segway to the next set of rules I'm working with here:

2. Zeus is a good guy.

Okay, I know it hurts to accept this, buttercups, but we have to muscle through it. The version of Zeus that we got in Disney's Hercules is a sanitized, lovable goofball who loves his son, his wife (is that allowed?), and his brother who's going through a phase.

BTW I would like to draw attention to the fact this is the first time in an adaptation of greek myth where Hera is Hercules' bio mother. This is clearly outlining to the audience- hey! Zeus is faithful?

So Zeusy's worst flaw (infidelity, Don Juan, insatiable sexual appetite- pick your poison) has been erased. That's wild, but we have to accept this to better understand the context of Hades vs Zeus. We have to establish who has morality in this equation. Earlier parts of my Hercules Conflicts series had obvious good guys vs Hades, but for this one I have to build it up because of the history of these mythological figures.

However, before I roll into it, I would like to dig on Mr. Thunder Dunder Head once.

This man violated the Geneva Conventions doing this to Danny DeVito:

Talk about some Zeus ex machina- yeesh.

Part II: And Then Along Came Zeus

With the introduction out of the way, now we can talk about the central conflict that kickstarted this movie into gear.

From the get-go, Hades establishes that he doesn't reciprocate his brother's affection. What should've been a good ol' fashioned family reunion turned into a neon flashing sign that Hades is very uncomfy around his brother. Hell, even when Zeus is trying to be friendly he ends up ordering him around.

And I don't think anyone's mentioned this before, but doesn't it seem like Zeus is just as touchy-feely here as Hades is with those beneath them? It makes me wonder if Hades learned this behavior from Zeus.

Now, we also get the idea that Zeus is clueless. Not just to how Hades is purposefully keeping him at arm's length, but also to how the other party guests, the gods, get very quiet and passive aggressive the second Hades showed up to spoil the party.

And you better believe this three-minute scene is the basis for this entire post. And there is a lot to digest here.

First off, we get Hades' motivation, his goals, and the receipts. You better believe this babe is writing in his little black burn book as soon as he gets back in his chariot.

From Zeus, to Hercules, to the rest of the gods, home boy has a lot to update after popping in after a long time. And I hate to be that guy, but a show of hands on who felt more sympathetic for Hades here?

Like I've mentioned in Disney's Most Sympathetic villain post already, but Hades' villain entrance is not intimidating in the slightest. If anything, it quickly establishes that Hades is kind of a loser in these circles.

To recap, while on Mt Olympus for two minutes Hades is:

Manhandled by his older brother

Manhandled by his nephew (ok i get this one, he nearly hurt a baby, those are spikes after all)

Ignored. Nobody but Zeus makes eye contact/or acknowledges him. More than likely this is b/c they can't stand the guy and out of respect for Zeus they've elected to just ignore him and hope he goes away.

Zeus gaslights him - yes, the guy who gave him the underworld job is telling him to slow down and live a little. That's like your boss gives you a crap load of work and comes by to ask you why he never sees you take time off. I will die on this hill that's positively diabolical.

And lastly, Hades gets laughed off the mountain.

Not once in this entire film did Zeus ever check up on Hades after this. Not to apologize, not to make up for lost time, bring up an opportunity for a party you could come to, or perform a wellness check. That would've been so hilarious seeing Zeus pop into the underworld and the entire scene is just Hades shenanigans of trying to cover up evidence of his plot to murder this guy.

Although to be fair, Myth!Zeus had the same issue!

BUT to Myth!Zeus's credit, he made an attempt to improve his brooding brother's mood. And he did it in the worst way possible by immediately fixing him up with Persephone. So you really can't say that Myth!Zeus isn't trying.

Now since I've bashed Zeus I will give him some credit on his first scene. Hades isn't there to stay and chat, he's on a recon mission. And he evades all his brother's attempts at conversation. He cuts bolt boy off, uses humor as a defense mechanism, and he deflects every time Zeus tries to get cozy. Why?

Homeboy found out a new godling was born.

And the way the movie presents Baby Hercules- from Zeus being awkward and kind of scared to hold him- I get the vibes that the writers are making Zeus out to be a first time dad.

Yeah, apparently we're ignoring Athena, Ares, Apollo, Artemis, Bacchus, Hermes, Hephaestus, etc

Wild I know, but there is a purpose to it.

@persephoneflowerpetals made a very interesting blog post about this particular aspect that deserves a look and got me to thinking.

So not to steal their thunder, but Hades showing up to Hercules' Amphidromia (ancient greek family festival where newborn babies are given their name in front of their family & friends on 5th or 7th day of life) was for him to see who his competition was - whether or not Hercules sided with Zeus or not when Hades' own uprising happens.

And by not siding with Zeus, I'm talking about Hercules having his own type of uprising and usurping his father as all the previous kings had done before him.

Which is really cool! It's taking the Lion King/Hamlet story from a different angle. The nephew is just as much of a threat as his father if not more.

You see age doesn't really factor for Greek gods (Artemis was born minutes before her brother and she helped her mom deliver him & the food of the gods aged baby godlings quickly) so it's a very smart move for Hades to see what he was up against very quickly. Hell at this point in time he had no idea he just needed to wait 18 more years for his uprising.

And that's why Hades was more concerned about the sunspot than his own brother. It could very well be that he wouldn't be fighting Zeus, but Hercules for the ownership of the Olympian throne.

This puts Hercules on equal footing with Zeus in terms of level and power and establishes why Herc is the main protagonist- not Zeus.

Hell, if anything, Hades knows from experience that posterity can easily overtake the previous generation. He did that once despite the odds being stacked against him and his siblings even though Gospel Truth claims Zeus stopped the Titans on his own.

Part III: Olympus is That Way

The Titan Jail break will never not be funny to me. We see 5 giant Titans stomping around in the woods, the seas, the fields, cities, etc in what I am assuming is about sunrise?

You mean to tell me there wasn't a single person- or god, we have to remember there are gods in this universe that didn't want to- I don't know- let Zeus know what was coming? I mean it's not like Poseidon would know they were freed from their underwater prison, or Apollo as he's driving his chariot- it is a bit cloudy after all, or any others to notice their cities with mortals actively praying to them are under a massive attack.

Horses were killed, Poseidon. Your descendants. My sibling the horse girl is very disappointed in you.

Now I know this is touched upon in my series Hercules Conflicts Part II, but it does merit a mention since ultimately it is Zeus' fault / laziness that the Titans were able to show up on their front doorstep without anyone realizing until too late.

And Zeus is absolutely torn apart when he realizes it was his brooding baby brother who gave him the ol' Judas Kiss.

I couldn't find the gif of Zeus' realization face that maybe what his brother was going through was not just a phase. However, just like Mufasa before him, bolt boy realizes too late of his brother's treachery.

And what's the last line, Hades delivers to Zeus:

Oh?!

Is- is Hades bitter about the job Zeus gave him? Of being ordered around while the rest of the pantheon got to play around and have some fun?

Jokes aside, but Hades' whole plot, all his animosity and antagonism towards Zeus came because of the lot he was given by bolt boy over here. And while Hades does call Zeus his greatest rival it's because Zeus put him in that position in the first place.

Zeus created his worst enemy.

It's like one of my profs commented once in my classes back in my uni days. The oil spill that happened in the Gulf of Mexico didn't happen because of one mistake. It happened because of several mistakes, several oversights, several safety overrides for the sake of not losing money were made over a period of years that eventually lead to a disaster that no longer could be ignored.

And that is ultimately what became Zeus' fatal flaw in this movie.

His negligence.

We can blame the other gods for not being as committed as well, but it's like Hopper says in bug's life:

Zeus is at fault for his brother's betrayal, his son being turned mortal, and the mess the Titan's left in their wake.

So at the end of the movie when the Muses deliver another absolute banger, the system doesn't change. Things go back to the way they were just minus the one guy at the bottom most rung of the cosmos' ladder.

If change is to happen it starts at the top.

Not to end this on a downer- although we all know how screwed this world is after the credits roll, but I am happy to report, dear reader, that change does happen.

It's small, but it's still resounding.

Hercules chooses not to join his father. Just as Hades predicted in the opening scene if you go along with my theory from earlier in this post in Part II. And this wasn't even with the assistance of prophecy, it was because Hades knew his brother too well.

Zeus has a very exclusive club atop Olympus and he would never let someone like Meg, despite all that she's sacrificed and redeemed herself for. Because Meg is a representation of Hades here. Something I was very vocal about in Part 1 of my Hercules Conflicts Series.

And before you argue, remember, Zeus is the one who told Hercules that only gods can live on Olympus. Bolt boy knew Hercules was about to ask for a freebie for her, but his stance was made very clear on the matter.

So, Hercules refuses. Hades was proven to be correct.

Now, Hades just didn't know why Hercules would defect. And Hercules goes back to being a mortal because of Hades. Because Hades put Meg in the right place at the right time. Sure, it's because of Meg that Hades loses. But Hades got someone to realize Olympus isn't all its cracked up to be.

Through mortality.

The very aspect Hades himself represents as lord of the dead and god of the underworld.

Maybe Hades did win after all.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading!

Till next time, my dear readers

~Angel

[darkspellmaster]

I also think Aladdin would've been greatly improved if he had more competition for her hand. The only source of conflict in that whole movie, outside of Aladdin's self esteem issues, is Jafar, who wants to use him to get into the Cave of Wonders and then only wants him out of the way when he's disguised as a prince. By adding in another good option like a version of Jafar who's the same age as her, it would add more personal conflict for Aladdin and make him need to actually prove himself to win her over. As is, it does seem like Jasmine picked the best option out of the shitty hand that was dealt to her and Aladdin just needs to go to therapy instead of trying to get another partner. Again, that's just me.

Well the series did allow for a few. The most well known was, of course, Mozenrath, (favorite of mine, not gonna lie, Rip Johnathan Brandis), who sometimes flirted with her and clearly had a thing for her, but also lusted after power, so there was that. And then there was Daru Tavelevil, who was this conman like dude who came off as cultured and impressed Jasmine a bit with it, turned out to be selling iron to one of the other villains. Prince Wazoo was a snooty guy who tried to win her over, but, um...he was more of a joke character, and some people have shipped her with Arbutus, who was a kind of cross between Beast in personality, and Poison Ivy.

In the original Arabian Night's story there was a small conflict in the form of Aladdin, using his Jinn to beat the son of the Vizier who was an option for the Princess to marry, though, depending on the retelling if she was into the guy or not. Some versions have him a clown, some have him a threat, others just have him as like, parents wanted them to marry because. From what I've read and seen of the making of Aladdin, there was going to be more to it. Aladdin's mom was going to be in the movie, being the moral voice to her son with the Genie, helping him to see that he had to make it up to the princess, and be better for her. Basically, what you're saying is Mozenrath should have been in the original movie. XD I mean, given what Iago said about how strong he was in magic, and then later we see what he does when he brain washes here, I can see where people would want that to happen. I do really wish they would have kept his mom involved somehow, it could have helped with some plotting beats, but at the time, most animated movies were between 89 and 93 minutes long. You didn't have the 2 hour plus run time some of them get now to expand on dynamics, so the songs had to do the heavy lifting. Could it have made for more drama, yes. But I'm not totally sure it would be as needed in this case, as the romance, while important to the story, was more about the growth and bonding between Genie and Aladdin. Showing how their friendship allows him to become more honest and true to who he is. And while I'm all for the romance in the story, I'm okay with it being the B plot of the relationship dynamic. Opposed to Beauty and the Beast, where the Romance is A plot, and everything else is B plot. Aladdin was a shift from that formula at the time.

Same kinda with Hercules, Mulan, and Hunchback. Family and Friendships took the mainstage, and romance moved to the back. Aladdin kinda was a bit of a start of that.

It's fun discussing these sorts of things. Ps. if you ever get the chance, and you can find it (since Disney still doesn't have it up on Disney Plus) look up the Aladdin series episode The Secret of Dagger Rock. It's the one where Jasmine fights Mozenrath to free Aladdin. (Additionally for Evil Jasmine, look up Forget Me Not, where she gets tricked into thinking she's a famous villain and totally leads the hell out of a team of baddies, forcing Abis Mal to ask for help to stop her from Aladdin. It's where her black outfit first shows up)

Hope the answer is good for you.

[bellmo15-blog]

Like A Whole New World

Are you all that surprised I eventually got something relating to Aladdin? I mean this is me we are talking about heh. XD And if you are surprised… good lord, have you people even been TRYING to pay attention to some of the stuff I’m interested in?!?!

If you were to ask me what my favourite animated Disney movie was, well that would be a hard question because there’s a lot of great movies they have made when they aren’t pointlessly making live action remakes of those movies for reasons I don’t think I’ll ever understand, but one of them definitely has to be Aladdin… Well, Aladdin and Hercules but seeing as how this is an Aladdin pic of course I’m gonna talk about that here! Aside from just the overall design of the film fitting into my kind of design aesthetic of that old Middle Eastern/Arabian Nights kinda look it’s just a generally great movie held up by it’s amazing characters (ESPECIALLY the Genie) and how there’s never really a dull moment in this whole thing.

And nothing says “I like this film” more than getting not only my own sona dressed as the main character but also my waifu and there girlfriend Shantae dressed as Jasmine. Fitting two considering Shantae herself is Half Genie and a genie plays a massive role in the story of Aladdin. Or I guess she’s dressed as Princess Buddir al Buddoor if we’re going by what the Princess was actually called the original story of Aladdin from the 1001 Nights. And also technically Aladdin lived with his parents in the original story compared to the Disney version where he’s a street rat. And also there’s actually two genies instead of one. Also Jafar isn’t defeated by his own hubris but rather… Oh, what’s that? You didn’t know that Disney’s Aladdin was an adaptation of an already existing story? It’s okay, lots of people still don’t realise pretty much all of Disney’s Animated Library is lifted from already existing sources lol. And so is some of Dreamwork’s two. No seriously, look it up!

Yeah the whole concept behind this pic more or less writes itself. Me with my wired little interest in this sort of aesthetic and liking this movie a lot and Shantae with her heritage as being half genie and a belly dancer. Plus, apparently at least according to one friend, Aladdin and Jasmine are a pretty popular cosplay couple anyway. Plus, it’s nice to get something involving my sona and Shantae together on the more wholesome side again. And I’m sure the place that holds those Magic Carpet races in Half Genie Hero won’t mind us borrowing one of their carpets for this. Or maybe the carpets a present from Sharah from Sonic and the Secret Rings after Shantae finally met her. *Or, since I am brining up Sonic and the Secret Rings, maybe this is just our equivalents in the world of Arabian Nights. Hey, who said that whole thing was limited to JUST Sonic characters lol?*

Artist is AmeerAshourDraws.

[voluptuarian]

Who the fuck is Heracles?: Greek myths, Roman names, and American media in the Heracles vs. Hercules dilemma

So I regularly see people complaining about and/or ridiculing media (tv, movies, books, usually American) where Heracles, despite being represented in the Greek stories and with the Greek pantheon, is referred to by Hercules, his Roman name. The biggest target I see getting flack for this is the Disney movie and frequently people assume a story using the Roman name implies the creator's ignorance about mythology in general. I wish I could tell you all that it was that simple... sadly I can't. What I can tell you is that somehow, the name-form Hercules has predominated so entirely in the English-speaking world that that is pretty much the only version used in America, period. I would hazard that the majority of Americans, despite knowing who Hercules is, would be confused if asked about Heracles. People who recognize Heracles know something about Greek history or mythology-- if you don't know Hercules however, you live under a rock. Even I, a devoted mythology, history, and etymology fan generally refer to him as Hercules.

(I would assume this is also common outside of the US but I have nowhere near the knowledge base to confirm that one way or another-- feel free to chime in if you do.)

Now none of this has been academically researched-- I frankly do not have the energy to do an entire bottom-up deep dive on this, even if I might have the time-- but from the myriad threads of random knowledge I do have, I think I've been able to figure out HOW this situation started and WHY it's persisted so stubbornly.

To start out, after the re-popularizing of classical culture and myth in the Renaissance and on through the 18th and early 19th centuries, Europeans seem to have overwhelmingly referred to the Greek and Roman mythological figures by their Latin names, even if they were referring to Greek stories or a combination of the two. I see references to Jove, Jupiter, and Juno much more frequently than to Zeus and Hera, and Minerva more often than Athena; Diane de Portiers of course was literally named for a Roman goddess, and it was Diana who she was repeatedly painted as. Even before the Renaissance and neo-platonism, when gods appear, Latin names seem to be the standard-- Venus and Mars are not infrequently brought up in medieval literature, but I have yet to see Aphrodite and Ares (I assume the preference for Latin names is from Catholicism helping make Latin the scholarly language, not Greek? Or maybe it's tied to the planetary/scientific names? idk). The figures who I see getting called by Greek names seem to be more minor ones (I see Hebe much more often than I do Juventas), are being referred to by an epithet (Cynthia or Phoebus, for instance) or did not have a corresponding Roman figure, like Apollo, who the Romans just adopted whole cloth. (Hermes seems to be used at least as often as Mercury, which I can only assume is due to the popularity of Hermeticism.) Hercules, who for some reason appears to have been one of, if not the most popular Greek hero in the early modern period and on (why?? again, I don't know; maybe because the labors made for good art concepts? Maybe because Roman emperors had play-acted as him and so many figures were supposed to be his descendants?) is similarly mostly called by his Roman name. The continuing popularity of using classical figures in literature and allegory, especially in political image-making, helped keep those trends going for centuries, and the Roman terms seem to continue to be the most popular into the 1800s.

At some point however, that switched. Across the board I think westerners now and at least Americans are much more familiar with the Greek gods and myths. (Or at least Greek myths as funneled through fucking Ovid. Does he deserve my hate? Unsure. Do I hate him regardless? Yes.) Odysseus is more recognizable here than Ulysses, and Jupiter, Neptune, Juno, and Pluto have lost out against Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, and Hades. Many Americans mistakenly believe the Roman gods were just entirely copied from the Greeks and know next to nothing about original Roman deities or the differences between Roman and Greek analogs. Now-- when exactly did this shift happen? 🤷‍♀️ Why did it happen? 🤷‍♀️ Above my pay grade. What I DO know is that somehow Hercules doesn't get picked up in this changeover when pretty much everybody else does.

So WHAT was going on to keep the Latin name stuck in the public mind? Strongmen.

For those not in the know, strongmen (and women) were part-athlete, part-bodybuilder entertainers who became popular stars in the Victorian period. They combined the emphasis on physical strength focused on by modern weightlifters with a gradually increasing emphasis on physique that became bodybuilding later. These strongwomen and men frequently used Greco-Roman-inspired professional names-- Cyclops, Vulcana, Charmion, Atlas, etc. Annnnd a bunch of them used the name Hercules. There was Katie Sandwina, the "Lady Hercules," William Bankier, known as "Apollo, the Scottish Hercules," the McCann brothers "Hercules" and "Samson," and John "Herkul" Grün. Even when they weren't going by the name Hercules, they were often billed as "a Hercules," as if Hercules was a byword for strongman. (Pretty sure Samsons and Goliaths got thrown around that way too, but Hercules seems to have been the most popular.) These stars also frequently performed and/or did promotional work inspired by or imitating Hercules (Maurice Dériaz and Eugen Sandow even modeled for artists as Hercules.)

(And here's Dériaz in the aforementioned role of Hercules. Obviously I know who he is because of strictly scholarly reasons and not because I saw this painting once and was intrigued by those incredibly lush pectorals. Banish the thought.)

By the 30s the "strongmen" were gradually beginning to split into athlete vs. entertainer categories and these theatrical professional names were phasing out.

But bodybuilders were still big, and were only going to get more deeply entrenched in the Hercules business thanks to the sword and sandals boom. That gets started roughly in the late 40s and goes on for the better part of 2 decades (getting increasingly less historical and more fantastical as it goes along.) It also includes a slew of movies starring bodybuilders. Hercules (along with Samson and Goliath and other original "muscleman characters") is regularly represented and always with his Roman name. By the 60s "Hercules" movies are a dime a dozen, almost entirely starring bodybuilders, including Steve Reeves in Hercules and its sequel; Mark Forest and Alan Steel in the seemingly endless Hercules And... or Hercules Against... movies, and Mickey Hargitay in The Loves of Hercules, all from the late 50s and 60s. (Meanwhile even though 1963's Jason and the Argonauts has Nigel Green in the role, he's still called Hercules, not Heracles.) An entire subgenre of (mostly Italian) sword and sandals movies centering on burly, physically powerful heroes (usually played by athletes or bodybuilders) develops directly out of the success of the first Hercules series.

Looking at the connection between "Hercules" and bodybuilders, the ties between bodybuilding and sword and sandals movies, and the later universality of "Hercules" in the genre, I can't help but assume the dominance of Hercules over Heracles has to be directly indebted to strongmen, and their unintentional preservation of the Roman name, which has persisted despite the switch to Greek for literally every other character. While the rest of the mythological names remained overwhelming tied to mythological context, Hercules had become attached to other spheres, which were unaffected by changes in academic language and remained culturally prominent. Through their eventual turn to film, later "strongmen" then helped Hercules, rather than Heracles, not only remain in use but become the standard.

So. Now we're at a point where the name is stuck beyond all reason, but enough people out there versed in mythology are going, "wtf why is his name wrong?" So why doesn't that get changed?

Well, I've seen one adaptation so far go for it. The Hades games already dug out the Minotaur's personal name and got everybody using it, so it's not surprising they would be willing to give Heracles a go. (They also apparently use Heracles in the Record of Ragnarok series, but that's an anime and I have no idea what the Hercules/Heracles situation is outside the English speaking world, so I'm not sure how common that is.)

Neither of the two equally forgettable Hercules films that came out in 2014 (still don't know how or why that happened) feels like the sort of project anyone involved in would have even considered floating Heracles for. Neither of them was, let's say, well made? or overly committed to accuracy to the source material, and both banked on "well everybody knows who Hercules is!" (Interestingly, since he was a world wrestler, the Dwayne Johnson project could be considered a continuation of the strongman Hercules tradition...)

Meanwhile if Disney even did consider giving their hero his appropriately Greek name, they were releasing it in 1997, right in the middle of the run of the Hercules tv show which had been airing for 2 years already and was hugely popular. Like every project that hinges on people being familiar with Hercules' story already, if it had gone with Heracles I think the public a. would not have known that was Hercules and b. would have been like "Who the fuck is Heracles? That sounds like Hercules lol." 😑 With that kind of project, at that particular time, I think anybody would have had a snowball's chance in hell of making a name change work. Even the Percy Jackson series, which did not come out in the direct shadow of the tv show and seems to pride itself on it's perceived accuracy (hmmmmm) also has Hercules rather than Heracles. I give Rick Riordan enough benefit of the doubt to assume he would have liked to use the authentic Greek name in his series if he could have-- publishers believing children could handle Heracles in a world of Herculeses however, seems less plausible. (I mean HBO didn't think an audience of grown adults could handle Asha and Osha, so...)

So there you have it, my personal theory on why we're still out here saying shit like "Hercules was the son of Zeus" in the year of our lord 2024, how we ended up here, and why it's more complex than just "the guy who wrote this doesn't know what he's talking about."

[pomefioredove]

Y'know I'm actually quite curious about something... does God exist in twst wonderland?????? Because this got me thinking when that one scene in Snow White when snow white was praying to God. I actually used to think that the main seven villains is the one they worship lololol idk I'm just really confuse. Or do they actually have other religions too???

Please don't mistake this for anything offensive 😔😔😔

hello hi. religious studies major here. I'm going to try to break this down to the best of my abilities.

I would argue that it is likely that religion exists in Twisted Wonderland.

there are already exact/similar parallels to things we have in our world, i.e., the city of Paris = Fleur City. the existence of the French language. linguistics is one of my big interests and there would have to be some really insane circumstances for fucking French to develop in a world where the Romans and Gauls didn't exist (...supposedly).

so it's not actually that weird to assume that religions like Christianity and Islam developed in Twisted Wonderland.

the relationship towards the seven does not quite resemble worship of the sacred, although expletives like "for seven's sake" seem to imply that they do. if anything, the narrative/attitude around the seven makes them resemble mythological heroes (such as our Fionn mac Cumhail, Moses, and, ironically enough, Heracles). a sacred person is different from a deity.

the stories surrounding the seven, accurate or not (it's implied that some liberties were taken, or the truth was simply lost to time) are myths. in an academic context, a "myth" simply means a cultural story.

as for the sacred, I have a few different theories.

religion blatantly exists in Disney movies. as you've pointed out, Snow White prays (and given that Snow White takes place before the protestant reformation, this makes her Catholic), there's like, the entirety of The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and so on and so forth.

Christianity isn't the only religion, though. Voodoo in The Princess and the Frog, Islam in Aladdin, Greek mythology in The Little Mermaid and Hercules, and various other references are also religious in nature. all of these properties exist in Twisted Wonderland, too.

it's not crazy to assume that religions similar to our own exist and are practiced in Twisted Wonderland. as I've stated in my Rollo thinkpiece, it's really really hard to separate Rollo's character from Catholicism, since Claude Frollo's character only make sense as Catholic. and then there's Hades, who is a god.

just like there's differences in culture and nationality in Twisted, there's differences in religion. there isn't one almighty God everyone believes in, because religion is diverse in nature. it's far more likely that multiple different belief systems exist, ones that inherently mirror our own. like, I couldn't even begin to try to guess fae beliefs, not only because I've barely gotten into book 7 but also because Twisted Wonderland's fae/fairy is not one I'm familiar with. I would consider myself fairly well versed on the politics, stories, and culture of the Tuatha Dé Danann, the daoine sí, etc, but the post-Christianity medieval French version of a fairy is not my area of expertise (though there's so much that goes into this discussion and I'd argue that the French fae depicted in Twisted is influenced by the older Tuatha Dé Danann I can't even sum up here it literally drives me insane. God almighty never get me talking about this I never shut up).

so. does this mean Twisted Jesus died on the twisted cross? maybe! or whatever the equivalent may be. for a world where French exists, where the city of Paris exists, in parallel to our own, it's actually not that weird to imagine religion existing, too.

I am of the very strong opinion that religion is inherent to humanity, and has existed for longer than we know now (Google the Rising Star Cave and h.naledi and the theories about their burial practices. gets me emotional every time) and I highly doubt the idea that all of Twisted is just completely secular.

I guess it's all left up to speculation, since nothing is outright stated.

[sage-nebula]

💫✨ people I’d like to get to know better ✨💫

thanks for the tag @caffernnn !!

last song i listened to: So I'm actually going to plug three songs that I've been absolutely obsessed with over the past weekend and have been listening on repeat as a result, all by the same artist -- Lydia the Bard, over on YouTube.

Lydia makes villain songs for the Disney princesses (among other Disney female characters). Her first handful were just lower pitched versions of their songs (or songs from their movies), but as she progressed she started changing lyrics, and now she's really grown and is making the songs more and more unique, culminating in finally creating a wholly unique villain song for Tinkerbell, which just came out and is my favorite.

"Fall Little Wendy Bird Fall" recontextualizes Tinkerbell's animosity toward Wendy. In this version, Tinkerbell and the other fairies of Pixie Hollow brought Peter Pan and the other Lost Boys there because, due to the nature of fairies' existence depending on humans believing in them, fairies were dying all around them as humans grew up and stopped believing. So the only way to secure their own lives was to make sure their humans never grew up. But Wendy threatens that by making Peter and the others long for human lives. Therefore, Tinkerbell sees her as a threat who must be taken out to save her own and her friends' lives. Not only does this song make Tinkerbell a far more compelling character, but the vocal performance is stunning, and the animatic that goes with it is amazing as well. Literally obsessed.

The other two I'm obsessed with are Meg's (where Hercules betrayed her as well & she kills Hades & takes his power) and Isabela's (where Mirabel doesn't get to her in time, and her resentment over the arranged marriage drives her to snap). Meg's is a bop and has a killer line in "In time they'll say I was cruel 'cause I cared", and I'm sorely tempted to use her final look at the end of the animatic as my Halloween costume this year. Meanwhile, Isabela's is also killer musically of course, and has equally fire lines like, "What could you possibly expect was gonna happen when you made me? / Tend to a plant with poison and expect a flower, are you crazy?" They're both just so good.

favorite color: Purple! Specifically cool shades, and especially cool shades that are more pastel, mixed with grey. I also like blues and greens that are faded like that, too.

currently watching: A little while ago I had started rewatching Sabrina the Teenage Witch since I hadn't watched it since middle school, but once I got to season four it got . . . bad . . . and it has continued to be bad . . . so I've kind of stopped watching lmao. I've lately been rewatching Jenny Nicholson's videos, but I finished that, so now I've gone back to rewatching Jenna Marbles videos. Oh, and I really love this series on YouTube called Bistro Huddy! It's hilarious, and Drew (the guy who portrays all the characters) is fantastic, he really melts into the roles so you almost forget it's one guy doing all of them. Highly recommend checking it out.

spicy/savory/sweet: Honestly depends on my mood, but I do have a strong sweet tooth, so honestly it's hard to go wrong by offering me ice cream or a cookie or something similar.

relationship status: Currently dating the lovely @skimmingthesurfaces 💜 She's actually going to be here this weekend for my birthday! (My birthday is on Tuesday, so I'm very blessed to have her with me for the whole weekend.)

current obsession(s): Aside from the songs mentioned above, I've been really thinking about one OC in particular of mine, and her story / novel . . . she's a character that I first created when I was about 13 or so, and has gone through a lot of development since then, but I've been fleshing out a lot more of her story and how she fits into this new original world I've created (since she was originally created for a Legend of Zelda role play, albeit even back then she came from a country outside of Hyrule). I really love and cherish her a lot, even though most other characters think she fulfills the "girl who is stupid" role in the adventuring party, and on some level she also believes this about herself, and to be fair she's not academically gifted at all, but to be even more fair the school and in fact overall society she was raised in was extraordinarily fucked up and no one actually tried to teach her in a way that would help her learn and in fact learning disabilities were seen as personal failings and --

Ahem. Anyway. I have long since described her as "pure of heart, dumb of ass," and in many ways she is, but for the second half, she's not in the way most everyone around her growing up assumed she was (including herself), or like, even if she is it wasn't 100% her fault (like yeah she slept in class and that was on her, but also she wasn't going to learn whether she was awake or not because her teachers were not going to be able to teach her the material because it was a One Size Fits All approach to teaching even when it really wasn't -- and that's only scratching the surface of the problems in her school / culture, it's a huge systemic thing). But yeah I've just been thinking about her a lot. Karin's my girl and I love her lots.

[rockyfellasfort]

Is it odd that as soon as I saw your Hades Intern outfit, all I pictured was you bottle feeding little farm Hercules? Kinda like how it was in the Disney version, except it was just plain milk and not the syrup. And I just figured you'd keep tabs on him and Nana. But also I pictured what your version of Hades would look like. I gotta say, so nice, and oh so fine.

I ain't good with babies at all so I'd just be shoving him into Pain and Panic's hands and it'd just become a situation where all three of us keep passing him amongst each other until someone says "WE'RE WASTING TIME--HADES IS GONNA KILL US"

HOWEVER, with the timeline in my head of my wee interning gremlin, I see them hoping on board with Hades around when Hercules is grown and potentially after Meg has made her deal with Hades (to avoid potential weirdness of having known Hercules since he was a baby due to jokes in future doodles I might draw) during the mainline events of the film just for the extra funny of them learning about Hades having sent Pain and Panic to kill a baby since Hades makes it all intense and intimidating like "Only the brave can work for me" only to wind up meeting said "baby" who is now a grown man.

I SHOULD GENUINELY DRAW MORE OF MY GREMLIN INTERN INSERT because I have a whole situation and movie alteration in my head for how they effect the events of the film since there's a lot because Hercules is one of my absolute favorite films (especially when it comes to Disney)

As for Hades, if we're talking a GENUINE attempt on designing him based off myths, I've already drawn a rough of him (as well as Zeus and Poseidon) awhile ago but that's basically how I view him in my head.

If we're talking Disney's Hades, he's got such a nice and iconic character design that I am lowkey intimated by the idea of trying to draw him since his look is SO intwined with the art style of Hercules...but he def will be fun to draw because of that challenge.

[synergysilhouette]

An alternate take on "Hercules" (1997)

This movie is a classic, though I did want to put my own twist on this, similar to my other remakes. Granted, my version isn't really too much closer to Greek mythology, but it has a bit more tweaks in there.

Change his origins. If we're gonna be loose with Greek mythology, I'll put my own twist on it. I'd make it so that Zeus (a questionable father in any iteration, it seems) had a child with a mortal woman--who's looks and personality would be similar to Disney's version of Hera--but because she was human, she couldn't be with him. As such, he married Hera, who is bitter that she was his second choice, and is extremely jealous when it's discovered that the mortal woman sired a child with Zeus named Hercules (let's say she was born in Rome), though she changed his name to Alcaeus to hide him from Hera. When he finds out the truth, he wants to go to Olympus to meet his father, but must achieve godhood to do so. It's also explained that many Olympians have taken in interest in Hercules--namely Dionysus, Hermes, Apollo, Athena, and Artemis, plus the Muses, all of them godly children that Zeus sired before his marriage to Hera--and they assist him here and there, though they must do it discreetly to avoid Hera's wrath.

2. Change the villains. This is a complex issue; Hera is definitely a villain here, but so is Hades, and to a point, Zeus. Zeus is the "good dad, bad husband" type of person; he's a lively person and a fun friend, but not good with his relationships, ie making Hera his second priority and undermining his older brothers since he's the king of the gods. He's not evil, but he is toxic. As such, Hera sets a plan in motion: she tells Zeus that she will not harm Hercules or his loved ones if he proves himself worthy of being a god, thus setting in motion Hercules' quest (as well as wanting to find where he belongs). However, she tasks Hades and Persephone (no Pain and Panic here, sadly) with doing him in before he can become immortal. She also manipulates her sons, the neglected Hephaestus and the power-hungry Ares, into helping her bring about Hercules' doom. She also cheats by occasionally giving him unreasonable bouts of anger that hinder his progress as a hero. And since we're dealing with about five villains, the Titans don't exist.

3. Megara is different--but only slightly. Still her jaded, pessimistic self, I'd want to remove any possible arguments of her being toxic with Hercules, since I was never a fan of them together. Here, instead of Hades offering Meg her freedom, her simply forces her to do his bidding, almost like an Ella Enchanted situation. However, seeing her lack of enthusiasm for this, Hermes, Apollo, and Artemis intervene during several occasions to help her work around her master's manipulation as well as giving her tools to help Hercules if he's in a bind (since they can't openly use their powers, as it would put a target on their backs with Hera). A part of me wanted to conflate her and Persephone's character into one, making her a woman forced to be Hades' wife and become bitter as a result, and Hercules' love and kindness makes her fall for him and decidedly leave Hades, but perhaps that's too much.

4. The ensemble is different. The main cast of the original was Hercules, Pegasus, Phil, and Meg. Here, the cast is made up of Hercules, Pegasus, Iolaus (his cousin rather than his nephew like in mythology) and Meg. Phil doesn't exist here, with Apollo, Athena, and Artemis training Hercules, with Meg and Iolaus as moral support. Hermes mainly tries to keep everything discreet so it never reaches Hera.

5. The message/ending is slightly different. Zeus learns to be a better person/god, owing his treatment of others due to his own childhood trauma at the hands of his father. His redemption is kinda like it was in "Immortals: Fenyx Rising." Hades and Persephone get some kind of gratification, as Zeus vows to treat Hades better and Hades acknowledges his manipulation of getting Persephone to marry him (this version of the story varies, but if he's gonna be a villain, we may as well go that route). Hera is imprisoned with Ares, and Hera acknowledges how she mistreated her sons due to her own pain, with only Hephaestus managing to overcome his trauma and help Hercules. Hercules doesn't really "give up" his godhood for his mortal family, though--he's never forced to make a choice between them and the Olympians; I kinda hated the implication with the original ending.

Lemme know what you think! This has been rattling around in my brain for a while.

[dreamerswriter]

Top 5 Characters I Want in Twisted Wonderland

This is the second part to this list and also the entire reason I thought of doing this list. I regret nothing. Also, I would love this.

5. Zeus

I don't think Hercules exist and let me explain before you come after me. If Idia is the Hades, then he's a teenager. If he's a teenager, then I think Zeus would be too in this case. Now, why does this matter? 

I want to know if Zeus is a party boy and knows Idia who clearly doesn't want anything to do with him. I need Zeus to be a jock and obvious to his wealth and that he's going to inherit a grand company one day. I want him to be the exact opposite to Idia in every way. I need Zeus to be into sports and go on and on about upcoming sporting events. I need him to essentially be the version of High School musical of Idia. If that makes sense. Huh… Troy Bolton… Bolt…. I am reading too much into this. 

Anyway, yes, he would have light magic. I would like to see him Overblot, but I don't think he's going to. If anything, he's going to give Idia another reason to. I wonder if Zeus gets made lighting strikes like how it snows when Malleus is sad. He would definitely go to RSA. 

I don't think Zeus really had a hard life growing up if we're thinking of storylines. If anything, I can see him being pressured to taking over the company, but he's going to have help I have a feeling. I would like to see Idia and him clash with Ortho being the reason neither of them go over board. 

I would love to see the other gods too. It would be fun to see! As well as a nightmare for Idia. 

If we are talking about the cards next, I want Idia to be the SSR with Ortho as an SR (even though the little boy has a bunch I want). As for the others, I would want Malleus considering he's powerful and to see his reactions and interactions with the gods. As for the R card, let's bring Leona. He would want to mess with gods, but I also want to know how he would view them. He would most likely hate them, but still. I would want Idia's duo to be with Malleus. Both are nerds and powerful. Give me one with a duo! No, not the birthday one that I couldn't pull! Thanks, Malleus!

4. Aladdin's dad: Cassim 

I am a huge fan of Aladdin and I hope as a KH fan that we would get a chance to see Aladdin's dad Cassim. I don't know how many fans want this since most of us want to move on from a majority of the previous worlds. I wouldn't mind this at all since it has potential to visit the place where the Hand of Midas is. Though, this is not a KH video, but maybe I could make one. 

Now, about Aladdin's dad, much like with Hercules, I don't think Aladdin and Jasmine exist. Let me explain. Kalim is the sultan and the dad of Jasmine in the Disney movies. He's 17 at this moment and will hopefully have a kid later. Though, they could make Jasmine a cousin or distant relative of his. That's fine as well. I wouldn't mind though if we focused on the parents of some of the characters. 

So, I would want Cassim to attend RSA. The reason being is he loves his son and wife. He was trying to find a treasure for them. Sure, he did leave them and then Aladdin's life kind of spiral, and his wife did die, but he was caring for the family. As a result, I think his magic would be dark by default as well as belonging to an Aladdin theme dorm. 

As for a backstory, I think he would be in a similar situation to Ruggie. He works hard, trying to make a living for himself, and also searching for a fable treasure. He would be smart in history and pretty good with magic and combat. I would love a little detail that he does have a sweetheart and is trying to find a way for them to have a house and living. 

I think the chances of him having an Overblot are there. He would do anything for his family or to find that treasure or maybe even make a quick yet profitable sum from someone rich. 

This could lead to the storyline for him to actually meet Jamil and Kalim. A party is there in the Scalding Sands and what better way to earn money than to steal it when the party is happening, similar to the movie. I would love to see Jamil and him clash for the treasure and understanding each other's situations. 

For cards, I would love Jamil to be the SSR with Kalim as SR. Ruggie as an SR would be interesting as well since I would want him to interact with Cassim at one point. For the R card, I want it to be Lilia. I would want to know his perspective on this situation and how he would respond. More so since he is a good friend of Kalim and cares for Malleus. Jamil's duo would be with Ruggie.

3. Mulan, Shang, + Mushu 

I am an Asian American who is Chinese. I love the fact that maybe Malleus' dad might be Chinese and that Lilia wants to retire to wherever the frick Mushu lives. That being said, I would want to see Mulan, Shang, and/or Mushu appear in this. 

All three would definitely appear in RSA and wield light magic since all 3 did noble deeds. Ok, Mushu didn't in the beginning of both movies, but still. I don't think there would be a Mulan theme dorm which is tragic. I don't know what dorm they would be put in. Probably a dorm with the theme of honor and loving your family and ancestors. 

All three could have a backstory of wanting to bring honor to their families, or we could see them at their hometown or the place where Lilia wants to retire to which is the Land of the Red Dragon! That would be interesting. It could even be held during a tournament in the place and the victor could win the crest of the emperor. 

If any of the three could Overblot, I don't know why, but I see Shang being the most likely one to be. Perhaps he loses when he really didn't want to. It was going to be a gift for his father and ancestors. I feel like Mulan would cause it. She has been known to cause a lot of trouble before, so this would honestly track well. 

For cards, I want Silver to be the SSR with Lilia as the SR. Silver enters the tournament for his dad and Lilia finally has a duo with his son! I would love to see Jack get an SR since he would be for a fighting tournament and for honor. The R card would be Floyd. You mean to tell me he wouldn't throw down for fun? He totally would!

2. Yzma + Kronk

So, Frollo is one of my favorite Disney villains and even more so in literature too. I loved how she created Rollo in the game. I cannot get over how well she did with this version of the character. To be honest, when I joined around last year, I wanted her to add Frollo. So, when Rollo was added, I was thinking about another character I would want to add to this game. And then, I thought of someone or rather, a pair. 

Yep, Yzma and Kronk. There is no way I wouldn't suggest adding them into this chaos. Don't question my insanity. Either way, I want them in this app. I don't care how or why, I want them here. I just want it to be utterly insane. I want one of the characters to have beastman features while taking another one away. Just Kronk being a himbo. Before anyone says anything, Kronk would be a himbo if we turned Rollo into an anime twink. Yzma is an attractive person and you can't change my mind on this. 

So, they should be in NRC. But it would be funny if they were living their own life or at another school. Since when know that Honest Fox and Gideon are going to appear as a duo. It is possible for both to appear. Who knows? Maybe Twst Kuzco throws a party and some takes a drink and turns into a llama. Is it really no question that Yzma would Overblot. Probably because of something Kronk does. Or anyone who is just too stupid and ruins her plans. 

Yzma has dark magic while I want Kronk to have light magic. It would be a great difference between the two. As well as Kronk having dumb morals while Yzma doesn't have any morals. I hope that's a line. Like how Idia says "Morals are the worst" or something like that. Like yin and yang except not romantic. It is mainly out of frustration and friendship that is extremely one sided for a while. I also want them to have a Jessie and James dynamic. I don't know how that would go, but it would be hilarious. They just keep coming back and causing problems. 

I suppose an ideal story would be to visit their hometown where Yzma does have a good reputation until you hear that Yzma won't be in charge because 

Possibly backstory or what could happen to the character

A potential storyline for them. 

Look for cards, Vil is the SSR. He needs more. The SR should be Rook. I need one card for them! Just one! Also, how could I not use them to compare Yzma and Kronk? Just how could I not? Also Vil's skill with poison would be helpful in whatever nightmare scenario are with these two. For the SR, please let it be Jack. I need more of his friendship with Vil. Also it would be fun to see if Yzma would turn him into a human.

1. Dr. Doofensmirtz 

And my number 1 character I would want without hesitation and if she knew this series would be Dr. Doofensmirtz! Now before you laugh, the comedic potential would be immaculate and the lore he could add would be insane. 

First off, NRC and in the Ignihyde dorm for sure. For the neutral magic, I would want to him to use dark magic. I know light magic would be interesting since he's actually a good father and friend. He just need therapy which he did get through a platypus named Perry. Oh gods, imagine Idia's reaction to hearing something explode in the dorms. He and Ortho rush out and find out that his invention blew up because he also added a self destruct button. Oh, please give me that!  

Now, his backstory (oh, he would love that I am doing this) would be very insane and interesting. Probably as insane as Rook's if we are honest. I want him to have ocelots beastman parents with some siblings as well as having a tie to his brother Roger. Not to mention he has a rival who is twst version of Perry the platypus. Can anyone imagine a Twst! Perry? I would also want to Monogram and Carl too. I don't think Vanessa would be here since that's his daughter, and I want Dr. Doof as a student. Phinease and Ferb would also be interesting to see. You can even add love muffin into the game as a group that Dr. Doof would meet up with. You can even include a few scientist he worked with. Though, that might be too many characters. 

I think this is a good point to mention that I would love to see some characters from some of the best of Disney TV series. Most notable, I would add characters from the Owl House, Amphibia, Kim Possible, Gravity Falls, and so much more. If you don't know Najma isn't based on anything animated, but from a video game. She's actually yet to appear in anything. Now, out of all these animated shows, I would love it if Eda appeared in some form. Whether she be a teacher or a student, both would work extremely well. Eda is good with kids and even becomes a teacher at the end of the tragically cut short Owl House season 3. Besides her, look none of you wish for this. I don't want Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls in anime form. This applies to Kingdom Hearts. I do not need to see Bill in there. He should not know what a keyblade is. Are we in agreement? Guys? 

But this is about Dr. Doof and to be honest, you can do anything with his backstory, because he had a lot of people who pretty much screwed him over. From his brother, classmates, society, heck even a baking soda volcano, anything is actually possible. He would Overblot, because let's be real, he would be justified to the rest of the cast. His backstory has potential to be something insane. Heck, the event could even tie into it along with his invention in true Doof form. 

If we are going to have cards for this event, oh, boy who would I even pick? You can never go wrong with Vil because he would relate and understand Doof's backstory and pain. I could see Ruggie also being here since he understand the need of hard work. Deuce is the R card, because he understand the pains of a backstory. For the SSR, I would want it to be Idia who has to be a dorm leader and handle this mess and have a duo with Vil. 

The potential for him would be insane and enjoyable. I would be very happy if he were to debut in this series, truly. However, I don't think will be the case. This would mean she's watched Phineas and Ferb, and I don't know how I will be to handle that. There are theories that Kh might have some of the cartoons which is something I would love, but I don't think this is case for now. 

[wonderfulworldofmichaelford]

Psycho Analysis: Disney’s Hades

(WARNING! This analysis contains SPOILERS!)

So you’re trying to make a family friendly version of the Greek myth of Hercules for some ungodly reason. Right off the bat, you run into the problem of how he was conceived (Zeus can’t keep his dick in his pants) and that his arch-enemy is his dad’s wife and she’s constantly trying to murder him. None of that is gonna fly, so who can we have be the bad guy in this story?

How about Hades? Everyone hates him, after all.

Hades, lord of the dead and deal maker extraordinaire, is one of the freshest and funniest villains of the Disney Renaissance. He’s not quite the epic dramatic powerhouse that some of the other villains are, but once you see him in action, you are never gonna forget him.

Motivation/Goals: Hades is a guy who gets no respect among the other gods, and so to this end he decides to follow a prophecy that will allow him to free the Titans and wage war on Olympus. Despite being in Greek mythology and people like Oedipus and Theseus being household names in the film, Hades does not seem to detect the danger in following a prophecy that will inevitably lead to his downfall due to his hubris. Of course, if he was a little more self-aware we wouldn’t have a film, and that would be horrible.

To help stop the one thing that would ruin his plans (Hercules), Hades sends all manner of mythological monsters after Hercules, from his bumbling demon sidekicks to cameos from other myths to a rapist centaur. Of course, all of this just leads into the self-fulfilling nature of the prophecy. The movie may take a lot of liberties with Greek mythology, but the spirit is there with how Hades speeds up his own fate by trying to avoid the prophecy given to him in a manner similar to King Acrisius from the myth of Perseus. His motivations may be simply lusting for power, but it honestly suits the setting very well, because this sort of blind ambition is pretty common in Greek mythology, and it always leads to a fitting end.

Performance: According to James Woods, he was the only guy who didn’t audition with a generic deep, menacing voice. According to legend, he walked in tipsy and dropped “Name's Hades, Lord of the Dead. Hi, how ya doin'?" Whatever the truth is, the world is a better place for this more comedic, sleazy used car salesman take on Hades that really makes him stand out among other mythological villains even to this day. I think it definitely helps that Woods is evil in real life, so playing the Greek version of the devil just came naturally to him.

Final Fate: Much like the Greek hero Bellerophon, Hades tried to claim Olympus as his own but did not realize it was not his place, and so much like the Chimera-slaying hero was sent packing. He tries one last time to get a win on Hercules by taking Meg’s soul and trying to get Herc to sacrifice himself for her, but Phil’s boy ascends to godhood and not only caves in his face, but tosses him into the pool of spirits, who proceed to drag him down into the depths while Pain and Panic look on with glee. Don’t worry, though; he chimes in after the credits to let you know he’s okay.

Best Scene: I think the scene where he confronts Meg in the garden and the scene where he finally meets Hercules and gets him to give up his powers are both contenders, as both really highlight what a conniving, scheming bastard he is. The former scene gets bonus points for showing how utterly creepy, manipulative, and abusive he is towards Meg, and the latter gets props for ramping up that scummy used car salesman charm that makes Hades so delightful.

Final Thoughts & Score: Hades is not the very best villain of the Disney Renaissance, but he’s damn close.

Everything about him just sticks in your mind: His fun and creative design, James Woods’s fantastic performance, his slimy personality, his explosive outbursts… Maybe he’s not a dramatic powerhouse like Frollo or a brilliant takedown of toxic mindsets like Gaston, but he’s fun, and really, that’s what Hercules is all about: Fun. It’s a colorful, exciting, and heartfelt Superman-in-Ancient-Greece story, and a story like that needs a villain like Hades to bring it together.

What really makes Hades stand out among the crowd is how Woods is always down to play the blue bastard, no matter what. Animated series? Woods is there. Every Kingdom Hearts game? Woods is there, and you get to kick his ass. House of Mouse? You know that Woods is doing that. One could argue that maybe Disney should stop letting him come back and perhaps replace him with (as Schafrillas suggested) Bob Odenkirk, but you’ve gotta admire how committed he is to the role and how he’s always down to reprise it, even if he is a nasty, creepy douchebag. It’s one of those rare instances where the villain is more charming and charismatic than the actor.

What’s really great is that, while he’s relatively simple in terms of what his goals are, it manages to be pretty accurate to the sort of thing you’d see in a Greek myth (as I’ve already stated). People love to rag on how this movie takes so many liberties with mythology, up to and including making the traditionally stern but good Hades into a villain, but it’s all in the service of the story. And even still, the core themes and lessons of Greek myths are baked into this tale, despite it deviating from the stories.

Hades is an easy 10/10. He might just be the funniest Disney villain ever, stealing the show and being effortlessly funny in ways few other Disney villains are. Aside from Iago, he might actually be the most hilarious antagonist Disney ever created in the 90s. And the fact he’s managed to stay consistently great and funny while keeping the same VA across multiple forms of media? It’s nothing short of astounding. There have been a lot of evil or antagonistic Hades since, such as the one from Kid Icarus: Uprising and the one from the game Hades, but as good as they are they are all standing in the shadow of this goofy, conniving bastard.

[beardedmrbean]

Zoomer Huey rants about fairytales and Disney, okay they been a mess with public domain post Walt… but dear lord the copyright shitshow on the other 18th century-

Shit anyways, let use the earliest Disney movies to say Hercules (I can use mulan but we have very easy access to the og tale vs the classic Disney films)

Let me use the mother of all modern American animation, Snow White and the seven dwarfs

The thing is that Walt Disney grew up watching a version of Snow White in theaters as a child

And he decided that he wanted to do a new SPIN of the Classic fairytale in the then NEW and GROWING style of storytelling that was animation

And that the thing about a lot of Walt Disney era films like Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, Sword in the Stone, and Jungle Book.

They were SPINS on classics books and stories that were used in live action movies and plays at the time

And while behind the scenes knowledge became more well known after inking and desire to research it became more popular. Surviving documents and quotes always had Walt and his crew doing a different take on the source material. It just the Disney takes on fairytales stood the test of time due to animation styles and the company  preserverstion measures

Also the grimm thing….does anyone look up that the Grimm “fairytales” was a AMALGAMATIONS of different European folklores. So they serve as the basic of where you can get into European folklore…but it always had a citation needed as each region, culture, and era will have a different spin on it

Hell the Arthurian Legends are big examples as they rapidly change over the centuries. Hence why in Sword in the Stone, Merlin mention movies because he was hinting at Art that his life and stories will be retold and remembered for centuries to come.

But Hercules ugh

“Did you know Hera was actually a bitch-“ did you know that the Greek myths been a backbone of western culture stories for years and around the same time of the Disney movie, there were 2 popular Greek myth shows called Xena Warrior Princess and the legends of Hercules?

Not to mention that the animators presumed you would have learn the og Greek myths in high school English class like they did

And there was a ODEIPUS joke where Hercules thought his daddy issues was bad until he saw the play of the tragic Thebes king

Actually that the thing that I I notice with a lot of pop culture media and Wish is prime example…

Do people only know the CONTEMPORARY versions of Stories and don’t look into classic media or inspirations

Actually a lot of modern dc and marvel comics lore got me thinking here this as a example

Current comics writers and fans know that superhero teams like the Avengers and Justice League are contemporary American twists on classic team groups like Argonauts or Knights of the Round Table right?

Sorry, a lot of media is like…someone making a hamburger and think fast food is the basic for that. Make sense?

And that the thing about a lot of Walt Disney era films like Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, Sword in the Stone, and Jungle Book. They were SPINS on classics books and stories that were used in live action movies and plays at the time

Walt was a storyteller first and foremost, ya so he adapted a lot of things staying mostly true to the story but not entirely, which make them your own if you can at least with the Grimm stuff since you don't have any copyright issues to fuss with there.

Peter Pan is a odd case, there's still a partial copyright in place even though it's way past where it should exist, but the money funds a children's charity so people let that be, and I think it only is a thing in the UK.

But Hercules ugh “Did you know Hera was actually a bitch-“ did you know that the Greek myths been a backbone of western culture stories for years and around the same time of the Disney movie, there were 2 popular Greek myth shows called Xena Warrior Princess and the legends of Hercules? Not to mention that the animators presumed you would have learn the og Greek myths in high school English class like they did

I knew about Hera, Hercules and Xena too. Hercules really had the biggest issues with Hera not Hades too, but that doesn't work for the story. Also Walt was long dead so not on him at least.

One other bit that bugs me to no end, Hercules is Roman, Heracles is Greek and almost nobody in media ever gets it right.

And there was a ODEIPUS joke where Hercules thought his daddy issues was bad until he saw the play of the tragic Thebes king

Ya they do that, throw those in for the parents. Much better than the naked people in Great Mouse Detective lol.

Actually a lot of modern dc and marvel comics lore got me thinking here this as a example Current comics writers and fans know that superhero teams like the Avengers and Justice League are contemporary American twists on classic team groups like Argonauts or Knights of the Round Table right?

I never put that much thought into it, but honestly most media produced is a twist on a existing tale.

Black Panther, to The Lion King, to Kimba the White Lion, ect till we get to Hamlet, and it actually keeps going from there but I forget the stuff in between Kimba and Hamlet and after Hamlet.

Clueless is just Jane Austin's Emma, 10 Things I Hate About You is Taming of the Shrew, to be fair the writers and such were very open about the fact that they were doing a modern retelling on those ones, several others too big thing in the mid to late 90's.

Sorry, a lot of media is like…someone making a hamburger and think fast food is the basic for that. Make sense?

Think so, would be nice to see more effort put forth. At least for some types of films, stuff that guys like Adam Sandler fart out in order to take him and his friends on a 6 week working vacation and get some people that haven't worked in a while working so they can keep their SAG insurance and what not can stay as they are.

[pinayelf-archive]

I realized another reason why I dislike ai generated images so much besides the fact that it steals from art

I saw someone who makes ~realistic versions of animated characters w ai and I saw they did Hercules based off the Disney movie. I always had a crush on Hercules but the ai ~realistic version was so bland

he was just a Conventionally Attractive Guy TM. I know disney!Hercules was drawn to also be a conventionally attractive guy but he had features like a prominent nose and chin. the ai version wiped it out and just gave us some super polished generic attractive guy

I've seen convos about people being pressured to live up to that type of beauty these days (the kind where it's a generic sort of beautiful) and how it's basically unachievable because a lot of times it's due to filters and plastic surgery and it's like. that's the kind of look you get using ai

idk it's almost too on the nose with calling it artificial beauty but in real life even conventionally attractive people don't look like that. they have distinct features that make them unique

[derekscorner]

Kingdom Hearts: Gods & Angels

Just as the name implies this is a bit of a random shower-type of thought. It's not me complaining or trying to rewrite KH either, what I'm about to describe isn't even a problem objectively.

The thing I'm about to explain is a very much "me problem" that extends to any story I invest in but if you're bored like I am let's indulge a bit.

Kingdom Hearts: Angels & Gods

You see, I have the type of brain that tries to understand the lore of something. I do not need every answer given since a story should always retain mystery but there will always be some aspect of a world I can't help but hyper-focus on.

In KH's case it's the way life & death work. Initially it was easy to assume that Hades was the de-facto end point since the Disney version of the Olympians are very much godly.

Even in their source film the gods are depicted as immortal and omnipotent over their domain. Even Hades is, in actuality, a very powerful threat both in the movie and KH series.

(you see Hades display super strength in the movie a few times in fact)

Sora always wins with the power of friendship and Hercules has literal god-tier strength so Hades isn't that threatening but to the average living being he's basically a force of nature.

Even with his keyblade and otherworldly magic Sora can't actually kill Hades. He's legitimately immortal, there is no death for him.

Then later I assumed that each world essentially had it's own afterlife. Which may still be true to some extent at the time of me writing this. The presence of Joshua in DDD solidified this idea for me for a while.

I do keep in mind (as should you) that any Square character that cameos in KH is not the same one you see in the game they appear in. Squal isn't Squal, he's Leon. Cloud isn't Cloud, he's emo Cloud in Vincent Valentines outfit. Their backstories and personalities are rewritten entirely.

Even Zack who appeared in BBS was from the world of Hercules rather than having a history shared with Cloud. The closest being we seen to having a backstory hinted to be similar to their source material was Auron but the very fact he was in Hades underworld means some obvious variation has happened there as well.

This is very important because that means the same level of alteration exists for Joshua, his reapers, and the Shibuya that Neku calls home. We know the reapers game exists, we know that a Composer exists, but the actual accuracy to TWEWY's lore isn't guaranteed.

If anything, you should assume that the Shibuya that Neku calls home in KH is basically its own thing entirely. Especially now that Verum Rex exists with a Shibuya of it's own. (it was confirmed that the two shibuya's are indeed different)

The Final Headache World

But this all changes with KH3's Final World- hell, it all changes with Dark Road from the mobile titles.

In KH3 we're shown the "Final World" the place you supposedly go when you are done. There is no tricks, there is no miracles, you are as dead as you can be.

Sora literally broke time twice to save the day and still wound up here...or you're supposed too? See thanks to Dark Road or KH4's premise it's confusing.

We know you go to this Final World if you die both in heart, body, and soul. A total demise, KH3 tells us this in-game.

We also know that "Unreality" functions as a type of afterlife for people like Sora too since Strelitzia tells us as such in the KH4 trailer.

So...where do Joshua and Hades fit into that?

According to Hades here, according to what we've actually seen, the Underworld is your death. A Kh wielder or two die (okay more) in KHDR and they do go here.

The protagonists make a deal with Hades to speak to the spirit of one such dead key kid. Soooo that just makes my brain question "why?".

What dictates these differences. On a surface level you can assume Sora and Strelitzia are in Unreality because they were kicked out of "reality". We know this is true for Sora at the very least, the world at large didn't kill him it flat out removed him from reality as he knows it for breaking time.

But the first time Sora died he went to the Final World not the Underworld. The excuse that Kairi was keeping his heart connected to life is also a stretch because Sora still went to the Final World.

She offered a way back but she did not stop his death leading him to this world.

So where does the Underworld fit into that? How does Joshua's reaper game fit into this set up? Is there even a common denominator at all?

It's possible that every afterlife is connected to the Final World but that's conjecture on my part not a fact. I only offer it because Hades is shown fully capable of summoning dead people (like Auron or the Key Kid) and Joshua has shown that he's fully capable of retrieving dead people and moving them to worlds not within his domain.

He took Neku's group to the Realm of Sleep, he left his world behind to help reconstruct them. We don't know why he did but the point is that he could.

Hades and Joshua are literally two beings that you witness working on a cosmic scale. They clearly have power over death even in worlds they don't physically live in.

Kingdom Hearts: Gods & Angels???

And you want to know the real kicker? This bothers me personally not just for these questions about death but because my brain jumps the shark to the divine.

Death is always governed by something in any religion and what I have just described is an angel based on monotheistic religion and a pagan god working on a cosmic scale.

(technically composers are more like super-reapers or lower ranked angels than true angels but Joshua has the wings so semantics)

What is bothering me is that I do not comprehend how the cosmic landscape works. I know Hades is the god of death for everyone thanks to Dark Road, even Xigbar pokes fun at Hercules for having help in "high places". The Olympians in KH effect the universe as a whole.

But...Joshua exists and so does he. Do the gods just pick worlds to personally run? Do they make them? Between Joshua and the church in Notre Dome how do pagan gods like the Olympians or even Callisto from Pirates of the Caribbean fit in?

It's these kind of questions that my mind wanders too in KH and any story. I want to know, it bothers me that there's no concrete law.

Hell, I bet you even forgot that Davy Jones Locker was in KH3, it's an after life as well! Calisto is barely shown in KH3 but she's there, she's a sea goddess.

I didn't forget but I don't know where they all fit.

There is no answer for any of this and honestly it would be wiser from a writers standpoint to not try and do so. I just needed to rant about it for a bit.

I hope you enjoyed this trip through my insanity, I hope that I cured your boredom and never forget; this is a very me problem.